The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[the_jos]

On teaching and learning and motivation.

As community member I can say one thing.
I like to learn people new stuff. I've done it in the past and will continue doing it.
However, there is something that I refuse to do.

Back to swimming

When you learn to swim you become better. And when you become better, you can do more challenging things.
Now in Guild Wars we have those things called titles. Challenges. Trophies.
Imagine that such a price can be obtained by swimming from the shore to a small island just outside the coast.
Easily done by an experienced swimmer.
But what happens is that someone who is just able to swim gets in the water and starts swimming. Only to find out that he's drowning because of the waves and the whirlpools.
In this case I won't offer a life vest. I offer advice. Stay in shallow water and practice more. I won't help you get there, the only thing I will do is swim with you when you are unsure about yourself. But you will swim alone and if you ain't good enough I won't drag you to the island.

It's about motivation.
To motivate people you can do several things, for example:
1. Force them
2. Reward them
3. Tease them

The first one is easy to understand. You are going to walk 5km. If you stop walking, I have this stick and I will hit you as hard as I can.
Next one is also easy to understand. If you walk 5km you will get a medal.
The last one is somewhat harder. It's: Hey, I bet you can't walk 5km, prove your are worth it. There is no real reward except good feeling that you've showed the other that you could do things.

Now in GW, something went wrong.
What A-net did was introduce rewards. Titles, nice shiny items, that kind of stuff. Nothing wrong with that, it's a know motivator.
People just had to learn something (and it's not rocket science) and they would get a nice title.
But then, A-net made a stupid move in my opinion. They said: "here are the titles and to obtain them we are giving you some awesome new PvE skills and Consumables".
It completely takes away any motivation to learn.
They just made a little boat for people so they can row to the island. No swimming skills needed whatsoever.

Now let's talk about the community again.
I'm very willing to help people learn to swim, so to speak.
But most of them ain't motivated anymore to learn how to swin.
They want to learn how to row, to obtain the rewards as fast as possible.
And I can't blame them for that. GW is not about becoming a better player anymore. It's about getting rewards as fast as possible. No more personal improvement by practice and hard work. We take steroids and artificial help to boost our performance up to top-level play. Because rewards, that's something you can show to others. Who cares if you beat the NY marathon in a personal record time, even if it's 4 hours. We all get a gold medal for finishing it, look mum, I won the NY marathon and I have this medal to prove it, and I cheated with steroids to do it! That's what GW is nowadays (well, not entirely, but you get the point).

I do have my 'medals' but that's not what I'm proud of.
I've walked my marathons with others and had fun in the mean time.
I was there when they achieved their goals. And in the mean time got closer to mine.
And I think that's the real difference between teachers and students.
Students focus on the goal, while teachers know the goal is the result of a journey. And the true value lies in the experience of that journey and not the goal.
The goal is empty, it's worthless, it's bloody pixels on a screen.
Take the medal from the NY marathon. I might be able to buy one on e-bay. What's it's value?
Nothing, except that it brings back memories. And since I didn't run the NY marathon it's a piece of metal. There are no memories attached.

It's a shame that A-net shifted focus from experience to goal.

[Perkunas]

"You see that island over there?" I ask you.

"Yes," you reply.

"On that island, I have placed a chest with $10 mil, in gold bullion. All you have to do to claim it as yours, is get there. The waters between here and there is full of very aggressive sharks, squids, schools of Parana, and a few gators. Some of them will have bags of gold attached to them that you have to split with anyone that goes with you. And as you can see, the waves can be very rough."

"You will see lined up along the beach your options for getting there."

"Life preserver, should you decide to go alone. You can take your choice of up to 8 items to aid you in your trip." (55 build)

"Motor boat, with randomly selected crew of 7. You will make the 8th crew member. Each crew member has several items to select 8 items each to use on the trip. Oh, and the boat does have several holes in it. It has been known to sink before getting there." Faster than the sailboat. (PuG with possible PvE skills.)

"On the far end, you see a sailboat. With it, comes a crew of 7, and yourself, that you can select. You can select 8 items each to aid you on your trip. The winds can be unpredictable at times." Slower than motorboat, but safer(?) (Balanced(?) team)

Make your choice.

[CHannum]

Originally Posted by the_jos

It's a shame that A-net shifted focus from experience to goal.

No, the *players* shifted focus because they're, by and large, a bunch of typical, small minded idjits raised to never appreciate anything but the "win".

You can still work on every single title, item acquire, skill unlock, etc. as a journey, or you can HFFF, buy a skill pack, and stand in town with a key macro drinking your booze for you. It's up to you.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In Guild Wars, the problem was that ANet listened to those who didn't care about the game's integrity. They essentially put all modes on the same level of effort (or lack thereof) via Ursan, and even still today with PvE skills and consumables. The problem in doing this? It makes inexperienced players *stay* inexperienced. It further kills the incentive to improve at the game. It's totally fine if you don't want to improve, but you shouldn't be as rewarded and recognized for someone who does.

I just have to post and say I completely agree with you, which is a bit shocking!

[Bug John]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In Guild Wars, the problem was that ANet listened to those who didn't care about the game's integrity. They essentially put all modes on the same level of effort (or lack thereof) via Ursan, and even still today with PvE skills and consumables. The problem in doing this? It makes inexperienced players *stay* inexperienced. It further kills the incentive to improve at the game. It's totally fine if you don't want to improve, but you shouldn't be as rewarded and recognized for someone who does.

do you play to be recognized ?

does it bother you that other players can do the same things as you in a different way ?

personally, I just play for fun, and I enjoy the fact that people can play GW the way they like : if they want to ursan through normal mode, good for them, and if they want to kill Mallyx naked, good for them too, I couldn't care less

but our points of view are pretty irrelevant here, the point is "do players fail at GW, why, and what could turn them into better players ?"



the situation is not as simple as you think

people who want to get better at the game will do it by themselves, regardless of the build they're using, because that's the way they want to play

believe it or not, there are good permas that effectively know how to hold aggro, know the spawns, and there are terrible permas that will make their group fail miserably

clueless players will remain clueless with or without pve skills, ask them what's an imbagon, or a cryway team... the huge majority doesn't know

have you ever met the typical wammo trying to pug a normal mode mission with his echo mending bar and wished he could use the standard dslash / sy bar ? I do

I met terribad players using pve skills, and others who don't, just like I met very good players using pve skills, and others who don't... most players who succeed using pve skills would succeed without them, it would just take a bit longer


some people fail at this game because :
- they're not smart enough
- they don't care enough
- both

what's inside the game has little to do with that

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Bug John

some people fail at this game because :
- they're not smart enough
- they don't care enough
- both

what's inside the game has little to do with that

While it is true that some people may never be smart enough or they may never care enough, I think the point being made is that people need REASONS to try to get smarter or to care. Anet has all but removed those reasons.

[Bug John]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

While it is true that some people may never be smart enough or they may never care enough, I think the point being made is that people need REASONS to try to get smarter or to care. Anet has all but removed those reasons.

I agree on that, but reasons are very subjective, and I don't think Anet can find how to please everyone

even if they could, some may never care because it's "just a game"

even if GW2 is the best mmo ever (hope so ), I don't think the community will be any different

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Bug John

do you play to be recognized ?

does it bother you that other players can do the same things as you in a different way ?

No, I get a bit bothered when certain players want to access the most difficult portions of the game when they lack the skill, *and* when they can just stay in Normal Mode if it's too hard.

Regardless of it being a "different way" or not, when you don't need actual skill to complete the area, you've lost the depth. I don't mind people playing alternate methods as long as it doesn't decrease the depth.

If they just want to mess around in normal mode, that's totally okay with them. Unfortunately that's not what Ursan was being used for.

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I just have to post and say I completely agree with you, which is a bit shocking!

Fo shiz!

[Bug John]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No, I get a bit bothered when certain players want to access the most difficult portions of the game when they lack the skill, *and* when they can just stay in Normal Mode if it's too hard.

Regardless of it being a "different way" or not, when you don't need actual skill to complete the area, you've lost the depth. I don't mind people playing alternate methods as long as it doesn't decrease the depth.

If they just want to mess around in normal mode, that's totally okay with them. Unfortunately that's not what Ursan was being used for.

I'm still wondering why you're worried about the depth of others gameplay, maybe I'm a bit egoistic but I really couldn't care less about what people do when they're leaving an outpost as long as they're not in my group

if you know that you are skilled enough to complete elite areas using builds you enjoy playing, if you have a guild and / or a friend list that recognizes you as a good player, what more would you possibly want from pve ?

btw, let's not turn this into another ursan rant (something most of us will never agree on anyway ), the only thing we should say about ursan here is that the community has roughly the same level after than it had before, h/h are still better than pugs 90% of the time

[Age]

Originally Posted by Bug John

I agree on that, but reasons are very subjective, and I don't think Anet can find how to please everyone

even if they could, some may never care because it's "just a game"

even if GW2 is the best mmo ever (hope so ), I don't think the community will be any different

I don't know about GW2 being the best as Perfect World is outshining them all atm.There are no beggers no one looking for runs and any cursing in game.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Bug John

I'm still wondering why you're worried about the depth of others gameplay...

Other's gameplay? This is about the depth of the game. If you do not need an adequate amount of skill to do the most difficult tasks, then there is not much depth.

If you put a BFG9000 with unlimited at the beginning of every level of Doom on the Nightmare difficulty, then congrats you've killed the depth.

You *can* learn all the strategies without it, you *can* be incredibly skilled at not having to pick up that BFG, but none of it is required - *skill* isn't required. When skill is required is when we're getting somewhere.

[Gigashadow]

There's an interesting article by an MMO designer here: http://www.brokentoys.org/2009/02/03...-mmos-is-hard/

It's a great article, and in particular I agree with this statement of his:

"Game design, in many ways, is convincing players that they won a struggle against imposing odds. It does not mean actually creating imposing odds.

Also, I have seen metrics prove conclusively, time and time and time and time again, that in a game that *does* have monsters with decent AI and that use strategies that require some thought to defeat, that players will avoid them in droves and seek out the ones with the most brain damaged AI possible.

Players dislike challenge. They SAY they like challenge. They lie."

[CHannum]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Other's gameplay? This is about the depth of the game. If you do not need an adequate amount of skill to do the most difficult tasks, then there is not much depth.

If you put a BFG9000 with unlimited at the beginning of every level of Doom on the Nightmare difficulty, then congrats you've killed the depth.

You *can* learn all the strategies without it, you *can* be incredibly skilled at not having to pick up that BFG, but none of it is required - *skill* isn't required. When skill is required is when we're getting somewhere.

Absolute and complete rubbish.

First off, I would argue with the very premise that these PVE skills/consumables/stones/etc. have the nerfication effect you blithely claim. However, since I realise the average *poster* of these boards can't seem to get beyond GW pre-factions, I'll even ignore that bit of debate.

The real issue is that no one has to use anything. No one gains anything by taking the allegedly easy mode, no one loses anything. They give away max weapons for junk. Max armor is available for less than 10K including the materials. A full skill bar, at most, costs 8K.

You are whining like my 1 y.o. about the alleged harm to the depth of a game where anyone can get everything except the necessary playing skill for any character class for less than 20K, which without an iota of farming, you'll make in about a week or so of casual play.

All this so called depth that is lost is just a bunch of imaginary dingleberries the board knowitalls worship. Everyone else is just playing a *game* how they want and, hopefully, having a better time at it than the people on here crying for a glorious olden time that I suspect was no more or less fun than anything going on today, and it is all about the fun. However, since I started around the time of GWEN's release, I'll have to concede the game that has kept me an my friends better entertained than anything else we ever played since the original Unreal Tournament might, just might, have been a teensy bit better, but I strongly doubt it.

There is still plenty of skill required in this game, it's just that you all have too many crocodile tears in your eyes to see it. What you actually miss was needing *luck* in the game, because I will concede that the inclusion of PVE skills and consumables mitigate the luck factor by a lot, and that, my fellow gamer, is not a bad thing by any stretch.

I am a good player, I don't fall on the sort of cookie cutter PvX builds or "broken" skills, but I'll be damned if I want to see a vanquish go completely south because a particular boss battle went wrong, or the monk failed to heal someone at the right time in a battle and now they've got a 60% DP and became a boat anchor for the rest of the team. So give me my Pain Inverter and my Powerstones of Courage, I'll use them all day long where I feel they serve me, and I'll keep on having fun and shaking my head at people so introverted and pathetic that they think there's merit to punishing people for not being "as good" at a game like this as them.

[Bryant Again]

Hm. So PvE skills and consumables are good for the game, I hath seen'ith the light! /s

I'm gonna take this little passage out of your post, since it seems to think that it's what we "miss":

Originally Posted by CHannum

There is still plenty of skill required in this game, it's just that you all have too many crocodile tears in your eyes to see it. What you actually miss was needing *luck* in the game, because I will concede that the inclusion of PVE skills and consumables mitigate the luck factor by a lot, and that, my fellow gamer, is not a bad thing by any stretch.

Incorrect.

The only time I felt I had to rely on "luck" was when I was inexperienced. After that, I relied solely on proper team, build, and skill organization and performing correctly.

See where I'm going with this? Now I don't have to think or perform as hard as I used to. I just need to slap on FGJ and SY! on my bar and BOOM I'm the only one taking a moderate amount of damage meaning the only one that needs to be healed occasionally.

"Luck" is something inexperienced players rely on when they don't have the proper skill to face the task. Becoming a better player is getting rid of that reliance on luck, and if you don't want to improve then no problem, stick in Normal mode. Stay on "I'm Too Young To Die", set your difficulty slider to 0%.

But do *not* ask to make the Hard Mode, Nightmare setting or 100% difficulty as easy as the easiest settings.

[CrustyEarl]

How good or Bad some one is at a game is completely immaterial. It's a Game. The real question should be Are you having fun? If the answer is yes then continue to do so . If the answer is no, then its time to move on and find a new source of fun. Playing Games for bragging rights is silly at best, yet so many people I know still do... Just play to have fun.

If Noobs spoil the game for you then tech them how to get better or move on.

[Bug John]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Other's gameplay? This is about the depth of the game. If you do not need an adequate amount of skill to do the most difficult tasks, then there is not much depth.

If you put a BFG9000 with unlimited at the beginning of every level of Doom on the Nightmare difficulty, then congrats you've killed the depth.

You *can* learn all the strategies without it, you *can* be incredibly skilled at not having to pick up that BFG, but none of it is required - *skill* isn't required. When skill is required is when we're getting somewhere.

what's the point of having requirements when you can have the freedom to choose ?

it's not like others choices had any influences on yours


I'm getting sick of this virtual fascism, nobody is forcing you to do anything, but you want to decide how others should have fun, and it has to be your way

just let people enjoy the game the way they want

[the_jos]

Let's talk about "it's a game" for a moment.

Sure it is. But you are forgetting one thing.
It's not like you play a game of solitaire.
It's more like you play a game of Risk. Now when you and your friends play risk, you might adjust the rules because those rules are too complex. Or you want other goals.

However, this game of Risk isn't played by just the few of your friends, it's played by al lot of players. And they all somehow fall under the same rules.
So just saying: "I want to have fun and it's a game" isn't realistic. What you are saying is that all people playing together on that one board of Risk could all have different rules.

I think this is a completely retarted argument.
It's like playing a game with the kids like my nieces, they bend the rules every time so they will win.
This is fun for a couple of times, but at some point it gets annoying.
And when you tell them to stick to the rules and they all of a sudden can't win anymore, they'll cry and scream and throw the game from the table.
Games are supposed to be fun and should be won, by them!

You are acting like 5 year olds.
Grow up and accept that you should get better by practice and not by changing the rules.

But then, I guess this doesn't make sence to 5 year olds.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by CHannum

However, since I started around the time of GWEN's release..

I was going to make a nice response but I stopped reading right there. No disrespect, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Bug John

what's the point of having requirements when you can have the freedom to choose ?

it's not like others choices had any influences on yours

Wrong...choices have plenty of influence in many ways. They have influence on the game as a whole and on how others play. The entire culture of this game has changed beyond belief. I could sit here and explain it, but I wouldn't know where to begin.

Originally Posted by Bug John

I'm getting sick of this virtual fascism, nobody is forcing you to do anything, but you want to decide how others should have fun, and it has to be your way

just let people enjoy the game the way they want

Nobody was forcing Anet to change their game and screw over the people who bought it for its original purpose either. Perhaps people enjoying the game the way they want is making others enjoy it less? Something to think about.

[CHannum]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I was going to make a nice response but I stopped reading right there. No disrespect, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Absolute nonsense.

If people are playing the game and having fun and not finding all these completely imaginary flaws, the problem is between *your ears*, not in the game.

I find these forums filled with the most bile infested numbnuts in gaming, people who think the game started to fail when it was less than 20% completed.

If that's the case, you failed, not the game, go play something else, because those of us playing the game and loving it have no interest in the grumblings of a bunch of old men on the porch who should have been carted off to the old age home a long time ago.

Sixteen months on a single game is an insanely long time to hold a group of long time gamers' interest. That we don't forsee losing said interest for at least another year is further insanity.

The *fantasy* game you all wish would exist in the place of the current guild wars, frankly, would suck for the majority of players, and that's a pretty stupid game design philosophy. You pretend there was some time when this game really was some sort of chess game where men were men and the kiddies were left broken on the battlefield and everyone was happier for it, but it's your nostalgia talking plain and simple. *You* might have been happier for it, but the far larger number of players who have come and gone since this great apocalypse of GW, would strongly disagree with your minority rantings.

[Bug John]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Wrong...choices have plenty of influence in many ways. They have influence on the game as a whole and on how others play. The entire culture of this game has changed beyond belief. I could sit here and explain it, but I wouldn't know where to begin.

Maybe I don't pug enough to see the "culture" you're talking about, could you be more precise about that ?

Btw, don't you think it's totally normal that after more than 3 years, the way people play has evolved ?

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Nobody was forcing Anet to change their game and screw over the people who bought it for its original purpose either. Perhaps people enjoying the game the way they want is making others enjoy it less? Something to think about.

The original GW motto was "skill over time spent", I agree that Anet went too far away from that, I don't like it either.
I really wish there were difficulties associated with suitable rewards. There are difficult areas and game modes in GW, but I can't find any motivation completing them more than once, even if there's an exploit to make them incredibly easier. Beaten Mallyx twice, took me way too long as I'm not in a pve guild, got crap greens, a HoM statue, what about now ?

I see pve skills and consumables as new options to the game, just like the hard mode button, as GW has separate instances, they have no consequences outside your instance. I simply can't understand why you care that much about them.